Mathematical Patterns In The Quran

In this debate, Jay Smith destroys the very old Muslim claim that the Quran is unchanged.  Jay asserts the Quran that we have today is from 1924 and produced in Cairo:

https://youtu.be/fWHV9VnOJtc

In a previous debate Shabir Ally was willing to defend the Quran manuscripts, but now he at least twice declines to defend the older editions of the Quran, and bypasses a discussion of how the 1924 Quran is related to what Mohammed recited.
Instead he talks about mathematical patters in the Quran of today:

[1]
https://youtu.be/fWHV9VnOJtc?t=16m0s

What we look at is, the Quran that we hold in our hands today, regardless of the history,
because we can discuss that in detail and sometimes we get lost in the detail.
But when we pick up a copy of the Quran today, what academics usually refer to as the Egyptian edition of the Quran
[16:28] that is widespread, printed in Median and circulated for free,
we find that things in this Quran are arranged in mathematical patterns...

[2]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWHV9VnOJtc&feature=youtu.be&t=53m40s

I want to look at the Quran as we have it now...
and say that, regardless of all of the history that Jay has talked about,
which requires some discussion and investigation, let's look at this book itself,
and ask, is there anything in this book that indicates its divine origins...

Are these "patterns" really a miracle?

For at least as long as Muslims have had the "99 names of Allah", there was a culture of counting words in the Quran.  This is as old as the rosary-like prayer beads they use.

If Muslims were motivated to find the "mathematical patterns" in the Quran that Shabir Ally presented, then who is to say that they did not deliberately put them in in 1924?

The bottom line is that there is nothing in the Quran that was not capable of being constructed in 1924.

  If they were making claims about 20 digit prime numbers, that would be one thing, but all they are claiming is just simple arithmetic and science that was well-known at the time.


The Cairo edition is not a miracle by 1924 standards, and Jay Smith points out that it may not even be a miracle by any standard.
Here he shows that patters of this sort are commonly found with enough effort:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWHV9VnOJtc&feature=youtu.be&t=1h50m40s

Also, it is a a good thing that Allah disguised the Quran as the sayings of someone who was ignorant of the Bible (5:116-117), lest the kuffars benefit from all the scientific insights in it and win all the Nobel prizes in science, rather than the Muslims.

http://simpleargumentsversusislam.blogspot.com/2014/08/islams-intellectual-contributions-to.html

Also, what was the evidence for the Quran before 1924?

Why were these gospels not written in the life of Jesus?

Why were these gospels not written in the life of Jesus?

Jesus is "the First and the Last, the One who was dead and came to life"
-- (Revelation 2:8).  Jesus is not Dead!  After he died on the cross, he rose again and kept right on ministering!

Jesus rose again and spoke to many people (1 Cor 15, Luke 24: 13)
The Book of Revelation was partly dictated to John, and partly revealed to John in a vision.

Why were they not written in Aramaic the language he and the people spoke and in which he preached?

How do you know what language Jesus spoke in? The LXX, which was the Bible that was used in his day was in Greek, and all the people in Jesus' day knew that language.  If the scriptures were read in Greek, then it is more likely that religious conversations would be in Greek.

In the Book of Revelation, mentioned above, Jesus describes himself like this:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
--Revelation 1:8.
The words Alpha and Omega are Greek distinctly words.

Why there are so many different gospels, every denomination has its own?

The word Gospel can refer to either the teaching about how Jesus paid the price for our sin, or it can refer to the four (books) biographies that were written about the life of Jesus.
All Christian denominations use the same four biographies of Jesus.

Why the gospel needs to be written and rewritten?

Every local church wanted to have copies of these gospels, so they copied them and gave them to each other.  Sometimes they translated them into their own language, like Latin or Syriac.  There are about 5,800 manuscripts in the Greek language that we have today, and with the translations we have around 24,000 manuscripts (these are the numbers that Josh McDowell commonly cites).  The Bible of today comes from careful study of these manuscripts.

Why the newer editions are written by human beings who use their bias in it. Why you don't see the way Christianity is today was not taught by Jesus.

We are able to  know around what year each of these manuscripts was written because every time period had subtle changes in script style.  If any human were to have put changes into any of their copies of their gospels, they would not have been able to make their changes appear in all the manuscripts everywhere.  Special scholars, called "textual critics", do nothing but study the small changes that exist between manuscripts in order to reconstruct the original text.
At no time were all Bible manuscripts in the hands of one person or group.  Nobody would ever have been able to change the Bible.

How much adjustment to the text of the Bible comes from textual critic scholars?  The 1611 King James version (translation) was produced from about 12 manuscripts.  400+ years and 5788 manuscripts later, the King James version translation is still used by many people.

In Christianity we call a translation that was done by a committee a "version".  If one person does it, it is called a "translation".

ALSO: note that it is not true that Jesus did not bring his own book.  In fact, he did bring the book of Revelation to John his disciple.  John signed his name in it (it is not anonymous).
It is the only book in the New Testament that contains a blessing for the reader:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it."
--Revelation 1:3

Misinformation and lies by Yusuf Estes

This page shows various lies and disinformation by Yusuf Estes.
The last video on this page is absolutely devastating.

Can God have a Son? (Part 2 of 2) Former Christian Preacher Yusuf Estes
https://youtu.be/EkuZ1uW6Vq0?t=2m24s

First of all, and, this is very important to know, that their scriptures were not revealed in the English language,

so it's very unfair to have a dialogue talking about translations of something
that you know good and well there's no way that was it was ever in English language.
So you must immediately now go back to something that you translated from.
If you go back to the Latin, if you want to talk about the Latin translations,
or the translations to English from Latin you can immediately find serious problems
even if you all the way back to the time and Jerome when he did the Latin Vulgate
because this as good-- as an historical document is a fabulous thing-- but as far as being 100 percent accurate,
uh.. the Catholic Church themselves said we would never use this as the actual reference point for the Bible,
but it is a historical document, and a great document it is; there's no doubt about it.


What does the Latin Vulgate have to do with anything????

What we wanna say here now is that the Bible
as it came in the original form
doesn't exist today. Now, that should not be evidence for somebody to give up their faith and walk away.
I don't want that;
I've seen it happen to some of the scholars.
In fact most of the scholars, when they get to that point they just give up and say okay,
I'll be a Bible Scholar but I'm not going to be a Christian anymore. And one in
of the case in points that we've talked about in some of your other programs,
for those who didn't know it, Bart uh.. Eron is his name, was a
real born again --I guess-- Christian believing in the Bible as the absolute positive Word of God
and studied at The Moody Bible Institute here in Chicago
but then when he goes off to Princeton and learns from the archaeological..
finds the real manuscripts with a hands-on application
he says none of this is the real deal anymore we've been lied to!.....
[2:34]

Most Scholars, when they hear what Princeton teaches, stop being Christian?????


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Here David Wood shows how Yusuf Estes obfuscates on what the Quran teaches about killing Christians and Jews.

Yusuf Estes On violence and terrorism!
https://youtu.be/gQZN7Ikijo8


Yusuf Estes On violence and terrorism! 2
https://youtu.be/Fjz9ABNulY8

~~~~

In this video, Yusuf Estes either does not understand the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, or is misrepresenting it:

Does yusuf Estes know anything about Christianity?
https://youtu.be/KeIF9vli_To

~~~~

Dr. James White produced an amazing series of eight videos about misrepresentations of the Trinity by Yusuf Estes

Yusuf Estes on the Deen Show: Part 1
https://youtu.be/b_hngrtfChI

Yusuf Estes on the Deen Show: Part 2
https://youtu.be/8YamAD7Uhmc

Yusuf Estes on the Deen Show: Part 3
https://youtu.be/2dRSpJAyrJA

Yusuf Estes on the Deen Show: Part 4
https://youtu.be/ZWBk_XhFZfM

Yusuf Estes on the Deen Show: Part 5
https://youtu.be/ZgISCRXECSw

Yusuf Estes on the Deen Show: Part 6
https://youtu.be/PfANSmIw0mI

Yusuf Estes on the Deen Show: Part 7
https://youtu.be/bFHl6wHjI6Q

Yusuf Estes on the Deen Show: Part 8 (Conclusion)
https://youtu.be/BWFStI16WQk


~~~~


Yusuf Estes and the lies about embryology
http://rationalislam.blogspot.com/2012/09/yusuf-estes-and-lies-about-embryology.html

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This shows deliberate lies and deception by Yusuf Estes (must watch!!!):

The Deen Show Deception 2 - Yusuf Estes lies about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha
https://youtu.be/eF7oUYsh7Vg

Can God Have a Son? +

Muslims object to of the phrase "son of God". This is because, in reading the Quran, you would think that Christians believe that Jesus is the Biological son of God the Father.  For example:

He neither begets nor is begotten.
--Surah 112:3

This may be the most popular of all Muslim objections to Christianity.  You need to be prepared for this.

Yes, Jesus is called the "Son of God".  In fact, he is the unique (monogenes) son of God (John 3:16).

The phrase "son of God" applies not just to Jesus, but to potentially anyone:

But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--John 1:12

So the word, "son" is clearly intended as symbolic. Even the Quran admits that the word "son" can have symbolic meaning as 2:177 uses the phrase "son of the road" to mean someone who travels a lot.

Muhammed in the Bible: Did Jesus predict Muhammad? *

A common claim some  Muslims make is that the Comforter John 14:16 is a reference to Mohammed:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
--John 14:16 (KJV)

It takes a fairly knowledgeable  Muslim to be able to support this claim, and if they know that much, they should be smart enough to know that it is nonsense.  Jesus is not going to pray to the Father to send someone who will then deny the Gospel.  Christians won't find this convincing, so this claim is really for the benefit of  naïve Muslims.  So I suggest, from my experience, it is of no use to answer a Muslim who is making this argument, but for someone who has heard someone else say this it is a good opportunity for a mini-sermon.

The Holy Spirit is found throughout the Gospel of John from start to finish:

I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
--John 1:32 (KJV)

(that is, as gently as a dove, not in the form of a dove).

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit
--John 3:8 (KJV)

(The word for spirit in Greek is pneuma, meaning wind, breath on spirit.)


Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”
--John 4:21-26 (KJV)


On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
--John 7:37-39 (KJV)

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
--John 15:26-27 (KJV)

(If you can get the Muslim you are talking with to admit that Islam allows "Taqiyya", which is permitted lying, then Mohammed is not a Spirit of Truth.)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
--John 16:7 (KJV)

What about John 16:12-14?  Do they refer to Mohamed?

12 “I have yet many things to tell you, but you can’t bear them now. 
13 However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 
14 He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine, and will declare it to you.
--John 16:12-14  (KJV)


(In verse 13 we read "whatever he hears, that shall he speak".  This is sometimes used  to justify the claim that these verses apply to Mohammed.  However, it is also plausible that they are one of the few verses that explain some of the inner workings of the Holy Spirit.  He is not a rogue spirit, but submitted to the will of the Father, just as Jesus is:

"I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don't seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me."
--John 5:30   (KJV)

(After the resurrection, Jesus blew on his disciples to receive the Holy Ghost, as God had:
the LORD...breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
--Gen 2:7)

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
--John 20:22   (KJV)

Jesus Said You Must Be Born Again

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

When Jesus spoke of "water" and "spirit", there is only one Old Testament passage that this could refer to.  When Nicodemus does not understand this, he gets this response:

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?”

Here is the passage in Ezekiel chapter 36 that Jesus was referring to:

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses,
and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you.
And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
--Ezekiel 36:25-27

Christian Prayer and Muslim Prayer

One of the five Pillars of Islam is to pray five times a day.

However in Christianity we are to be in constant communion with God:

Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
--1 Thessalonians 5:16-18